Curse

Hellscream The Evil · Oct 03, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

thanks Auron, i'm italian and i can't speak as well as you. I totally agree with your post.

Elemental Mio · Oct 03, 2009, 09:27 AM // 09:27

And I was thinking Anet was gonna do something good for once ...

[email protected] bar
[email protected]+4RuptsBar
[email protected]
[email protected]

Go Anet Go!

zwei2stein · Oct 03, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I think we are well past deserved outrage and moved to pointless whining which does not help, not at all.

Lesson for devs:

Ok, this is minor failure, considering this is first time you attempted to bring community in and let em decide things more important than boss names in contest, i would consider it learning experience. However, builds do not have to stay the way they are forever, so you have seccond chance.

Next time, instead of allowing free-form contest, run poll instead. Create three builds per henchman, get little feedback, gently apply it and then let people vote which of them to get to game.

What happens when "bad" build wins? Well, people can argue between themselves. You are out of blame, because bad build would be failure of community rather than of devs.

And, i would think that simple set x-builds, let users poll can be automated and rather easy to implement whenever you feel that builds need refreshment, rather than sifting though thousands of builds that takes time and resuslts in this thread.

Auron of Neon · Oct 03, 2009, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

What happens when "bad" build wins? Well, people can argue between themselves. You are out of blame, because bad build would be failure of community rather than of devs.

I had originally written a much larger response, but in light of the giant one up at the top, I'll just summarize:

No, you're wrong. The devs have the last say in anything that gets put into their game. The community can make any bad suggestions they want, but as soon as the devs implement those bad ideas, the devs are at fault for not sieving through ideas and figuring out the ideas were bad in the first place.

In fact, that's part of Reggie's job.

Sierraa · Oct 03, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

While I want to sit here and argue about the creativity part, it's been pretty much beaten dead with 17 pages worth.

I want to say that while I'm happy for the people who won, I'm severely disappointed in how the bars were chosen. For those of us who actually spent the time trying to tailor a bar that a hero wouldn't completely suck at it's a slap in the face to see things like Song of Concentration and Make Haste. I understand that the game is 5 years old, I really do and I understand that none of us are going to think of a bar that hasn't been said and done before. But really? I'm pretty sure that you could almost argue that bars not in the pvx meta section that were submitted and tailored for a hero would are MORE effective than poorly designed bars that are meant for players.

Even if you "tweak" the AI to make -some- of them work, I fail to understand why of all times you're doing it now. Your player base cried for years about the hero AI in Hero Battles and the maps and you ignored us and finally removed it due to neglect. I find it extremely hard to believe that you're going to fix anything (see "Fixed Syncing in Arenas") let alone make these bars run properly. Your player base is dwindling as the days go by and more people are leaving because of the constant disappointment and your half assed jobs. Instead of constantly crying about how limited your resources are and how "hard" you're working why don't you put forth a tiny bit more effort into your projects or your community involvement and actually listen to what we're telling you about certain things. I'm sure that most of us would be happy if you spent the extra time giving us a quality update, instead of a ton of poorly thought out and executed disappointing updates.

capashen · Oct 03, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28

i found an "Hidden message from A-net" : don't use Henchies in HA nor GvG

Jarus · Oct 03, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

It's a lose-lose situation for Anet, really.

If they picked only truly original, non-PvX builds, then quite a few of them are likely to have AI issues. Otherwise, they'd be on PvX by now.

If they only picked succesful (and consequently posted on PvX) builds, then they get lambasted because they picked non-original ones.

So, they sort of went 50-50 on this one.

Sierraa · Oct 03, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by capashen

i found an "Hidden message from A-net" : don't use Henchies in HA nor GvG

I found one too from A-net: "Hi guys we're too lazy to pay attention to anything that's a problem in the game, so we're going to try to fix it but not really put forth the effort. We just like giving you the illusion that we're trying so that you won't completely desert us."

HA has been ignored for far too long and it's developed into the ugly stepchild that no one cares about. I would be all removing heroes and henchmen from HA if maybe the player base was bigger.

It's pretty evident that the live team is ignoring issues in GvG as well. Instead of fixing their mistakes right away they let things sit for a month-2 months. (lol R/A's) Or they continue to "forget" to fix bars or mechanics that are causing stale meta's and 28 hit the lord and run games. If you want to promote playing without heroes/henchmen you seriously need to take a look at some of the mechanics that have or are being abused.

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Another note: remember that Guild Wars is always changing. The design team may decide to modify the henchmen in the future if they feel it's appropriate, this includes tweaking their AI, or even changing their skills.

Loooooooooooooooooooooool, the best part of Regina's answer.

Anyone noticed this? "In the future"!

So, we will get "new" henches as they were submitted and somewhere in future they will announce AI tweaking. Taking into consideration that ANet GW1 team is short on resources (as Inde said and as we all know) it will be probably in 2 years from now, or better, they will anounce it as one of the next anniversary upgrade... A REALLY BIG LOL....

Anyone who said "they will improve AI" now see: they will but we got unuseable henches at start (lol) and this situation is not going to change in predictable future (lolx2).

The Dream · Oct 03, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

If they picked only truly original, non-PvX builds, then quite a few of them are likely to have AI issues. Otherwise, they'd be on PvX by now.

I think you are wrong. It is better to have/choose real build for hench with minor issues than hench playing with human bar with much greater AI issues.

Also on wiki there are rather most popular builds. It is still hard to find good builds for several professions played as hero/hench without supervision of human.

Darth The Xx · Oct 03, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

These skill bars made me lol for the reasons im sure have already been outlined.

I can picture it now

WTF the warrior henchman isnt doing anything???
He can't, his energy bar is gone due to shock spam
The hammer war keeps spamming hammer bash!
Why the hell did he just infuse me on 80% hp??

oh my god this'll be great!

oh and also lol at the thumper bar

kupp · Oct 03, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Even I that barely do any serious pvp feel outraged with this, not only are those bars made for humans - and sorry to say Anet, but you're deluding yourselves if you think that whatever AI update you'll do will ever make henchmen run those bars properly - but in the current state of GW PvP and PvE, it's absolutely idiotic the amount of time they spent creating this contest, picking those bars, implementing them in the game and the amount of time they'll waste updating the AI for them to run even remotely effective.

All of this when both sides of the game are in dire need of dev intervention. Seriously, it's beyond understanding. Shadow Form has been raping PvE for over a year and the devs are still at a complete loss as to how to fix it (just smiter boon it and be done with it, that's a skill that should have never been in the game to begin with), yet they waste more time on this.

PvP is also in dire need of skill balance since the last months, even ignoring the constant delays, were everything but impressive, and now they're even moving these updates to a bi-monthly schedule. I do appreciate what they tried to do with the contest when they're going to remove heroes, but the outcome was so miserable that they might as well have a) ignored the problem a little longer and used the time to do some PROPER skill balance, at least it would make people somewhat happier; b) remove heroes all together and be done with it; c) improve player grouping (admitedly something that might be hard to do at this point).

But overall I think that this was nothing but a gigantic waste of time so far, and will be a bigger waste from here on because I honestly can't believe that if in 4 years you haven't tried to correct the flaws in AI I doubt you'll be able to do it now, and even then this will be another bandaid-on-a-gunshot-wound. If in any day from today until the day GW servers are shut down, they'll ever make the henchmen run these bars efficiently, I'll kick myself in the ass.

Sad, just sad. For the first time in years, after always feeling sorry for the dev team and how everyone outright attacked anet at every update, I feel cheated and forced to agree with all the bashers. And for the first time, you've messed up in a way that together with what's been going on these last months, that I went from a player extremely excited with GW2 and everything you're set on accomplishing with the sequel, to a player that's uncertain of what we'll end up getting on the final product and how things will be handled then. I understand the difference between the GW2 and the GW dev team's sizes, but you should have never taken up something like this when the game is in it's current state.

All I can say, I feel sorry for the GW community in general when the time wasted on this could have been used for something much better, and I especially feel sorry for the PvP community. My 2cents.

On the bright side, now I'm fairly confident that due to delays we've grown so much to, and all the bandaids they'll try and make for this, we might get a couple of more RR days. For that I thank you, 1M gold in zkeys in a 24h without doing absolutely nothing is honestly a gift from the heavens for me.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 03, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bug John

isn't my point clear enough ?

people have been using heroes for things they were good at and the ability to control them...
all you get here is a warrior dumber than anyone you could pick up in spamadan ad1, what's the point of having them in game ?

no tease, no tainted flesh, no searing flames... anet doesn't even understand how their own AI works

Your point was clear, my point was more of a "are you really sure that's what you want?" I was under the impression that the problem with heroes was that they were just too good at certain areas(knowing who has what enchant/shout/hex, AI reflexes for interrupts/prots). I would be really happy if the henchmen were so bad that you were forced to pick up a guy from spamadan instead, wouldn't that just be good for the game?

Now the henchmen have really good bars for a human, but aspects of them will not be run well by the AI. Anet's solution is to buff the AI. You don't see the problems this will certainly create? (Given of course that Anet actually does buff/tweak the AI) Can you imagine a cowardsin spamming his skills on you with AI reflexes to interrupt you or shout at you instantly? How about henchmen who can detect a relic or flag and able to actually bodyblock? An infuser who will only infuse when necessary and will do so reliably within a quarter of a second every time?

Yep, keep on buffing the AI so we won't have to deal with stupid people anymore. Can't we just disconnect the clients from the servers, everyone can play HA alone with 7 heroes vs 8 AI bots, farm their titles and reconnect in about 1 or 2 years to show each other our hard-earned titles since that seems to be the main purpose for most of the players left in this game.

I'm also sorry for all the people who actually spent time and energy on creating medium-effective thought-out builds for the contest. This is a good opportunity to say "I told you so", however. I think I said something along the lines of "Yeah, anet is going to put 30 devs on the task, review all submitted builds, playtest them all and vote on the most suited bars". Maybe it wasn't clear then so I'm saying it now: That was sarcasm. FYI, I've used sarcasm in this post also.

Shadow Slave · Oct 03, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

May have already been mentioned, but the inclusion of a WC Sin in these winning entries makes me think they have no intention of changing this skill in the near future.

Woohoo.

DreamWind · Oct 03, 2009, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

Sad, just sad. For the first time in years, after always feeling sorry for the dev team and how everyone outright attacked anet at every update, I feel cheated and forced to agree with all the bashers.

While I feel your post is a bit of an overreaction, I think you have hit something important here. I think this is one of the first times that the MASSES realize that Anet has much less of an idea how their game works than the players do. PvP players have realized this for years due to several ridiculous attempts at balance over those years (which has caused most of the PvP community to leave), but this henchmen incident is possibly one of the first times they have exposed themselves to PvE players as well.

Jarus · Oct 03, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I submit this argument:
There are only so many skills out there, and only few of them are really worth taking into a competitive GvG/HA environment. Therefore, there are not that many really proper bars you can come up with. And you can probably already find these proper bars on PvX.

And no matter what, there will always be AI issues. Having a full bar also complicates things.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 03, 2009, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

On the bright side, now I'm fairly confident that due to delays we've grown so much to, and all the bandaids they'll try and make for this, we might get a couple of more RR days. For that I thank you, 1M gold in zkeys in a 24h without doing absolutely nothing is honestly a gift from the heavens for me.

At the risk of derailing this thread completely...

What's to be thrilled about getting to play RR longer? No one can possibly enjoy mapping back and forth and cashing in a free reward every 5 minutes. To me this is just like entering a cheat code in some old school offline game. Sure it's fun with invincibility and unlimited rockets and lasers.. for 5 minutes! Then you're fed up and will leave the game forever.

I'm probably the only gw player who does not care for weapon skins, wealth or fancy titles. In all my naivity I keep thinking what's wrong with everyone else? If given the choice most of you would accept a free offer from Anet of getting all your titles maxed for free, a glowy torment shield on all your chars, 30 stacks of ectos in the bank and 30 stacks of zkeys for some lottery amusement. You'd dance in joy and show off your titles in all the outposts. Only to realise everyone else has them too and there's nothing left "working for" in the game and you'd quit.

I keep reading threads where people QQ about devaluing or removing some title, reason being some have "worked hard" for their prestiguous title. Am I the only one who thinks it's a problem that people "work hard" in a video game? Working hard is something you do in real life for real rewards.

I'm probably a sick and masochistic bastard but I greatly prefer playing pvp with real people or running around in pve with players who run abysmal bars and do more wrong than right. I remember the old days where getting past thunderhead keep was a true challenge.. that was actually a lot more fun than loading 3 necro heroes, 4 henchmen and "working" my way through eotn.

Titles and heroes screwed the game over. But I'm the only one who thinks this, right?

Again sorry about the derail, the only relevance to this thread is that I couldn't care less about what skills they put on the henchmen bars as long as they suck so hard they'll never see play.

kupp · Oct 03, 2009, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

At the risk of derailing this thread completely...

What's to be thrilled about getting to play RR longer? No one can possibly enjoy mapping back and forth and cashing in a free reward every 5 minutes. To me this is just like entering a cheat code in some old school offline game. Sure it's fun with invincibility and unlimited rockets and lasers.. for 5 minutes! Then you're fed up and will leave the game forever.

I'm probably the only gw player who does not care for weapon skins, wealth or fancy titles. In all my naivity I keep thinking what's wrong with everyone else? If given the choice most of you would accept a free offer from Anet of getting all your titles maxed for free, a glowy torment shield on all your chars, 30 stacks of ectos in the bank and 30 stacks of zkeys for some lottery amusement. You'd dance in joy and show off your titles in all the outposts. Only to realise everyone else has them too and there's nothing left "working for" in the game and you'd quit.

I keep reading threads where people QQ about devaluing or removing some title, reason being some have "worked hard" for their prestiguous title. Am I the only one who thinks it's a problem that people "work hard" in a video game? Working hard is something you do in real life for real rewards.

I'm probably a sick and masochistic bastard but I greatly prefer playing pvp with real people or running around in pve with players who run abysmal bars and do more wrong than right. I remember the old days where getting past thunderhead keep was a true challenge.. that was actually a lot more fun than loading 3 necro heroes, 4 henchmen and "working" my way through eotn.

Titles and heroes screwed the game over. But I'm the only one who thinks this, right?

Again sorry about the derail, the only relevance to this thread is that I couldn't care less about what skills they put on the henchmen bars as long as they suck so hard they'll never see play.

I really don't enjoy it but I do need the money, and the last RR day (wich was the first I tried this) I made 350k in less than 3 hours. It's that good. And since I don't do any kind of SC's and barely do any farming at all, it's the best way I have to make money.

Title hunting is all I have left in the game before I either uninstall it and wait for GW2 or seriously commit to PvP. I don't really need the money as well since I already have pretty much every armor and weapon skin (I don't care for them that much too) I want, but titles sweet tooth and party animal do cost some gold and if I have the chance to max them, I'll take it.

But I still take some pleasure in the game, I'm about to finish my vanquish, guardian, cartographer title and I've only used 3 necros on few ocasions usually I run a balanced team without any of that easy-mode crap, so I'm not one of those players you're refering to. I just need the money mostly for titles that's all. :P after that I might start taking HA and GvG serious but atm I felt like I missed the PvP boat already and I'm wondering if it's really worth joining a pvp-only guild.

Lex · Oct 03, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

I submit this argument:

This is one of builds I submitted myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

There are only so many skills out there, and only few of them are really worth taking into a competitive GvG/HA environment.

Skills in this build support the rest of team, and, in my opinion, they are worth taking because they could have use. I would be glad to have such henchman in team in cause of team member's err7 during full HA run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

Therefore, there are not that many really proper bars you can come up with. And you can probably already find these proper bars on PvX.

I cant find my build on PvXwiki....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarus

And no matter what, there will always be AI issues. Having a full bar also complicates things.

I tested my build with hero - and guess what? It works great. There is no lack of energy, adrenaline and so on. And it is full bar hench.

So, your argument is invalid.